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Diplomat and revenues

Enviado por Benwa 
Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 10:44
Its just a question, but...

In the game as it is now on this site, it is impossible for the diplomat to exchange a district and then take its revenues. If the diplomat doesnt take his revenues before the exchange, these are definitively lost.

In the game we play with my friends, we say that the characters can use their power when they want in their turn. So we allow the diplomat to swap a card and then, to take its revenues (I think it is stated in the rules that the revenues must be taken once in the turn, when the player wants).
This is important because the diplomat could swap, for example, a green card with a red card, and then have one more gold revenue...

What do you think of this?
Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 11:02
I agree with you... but it seem that Achiles uses the Diplomat as the Warlord : its power can only be use at the end of his turn... But, I'd prefer a usual power, able to be used when we want !
Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 11:37
I agree, I was disapointed not to be abble to take incomes after swapping !!!
Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 11:54
Sorry, but, as was discused before, the Diplomat works (as the Warlord) at the end of the turn.
"At the end of your turn, you may take a district from another player's city in exchange for a..." (From the web of bruno...)

I dont know wich says the text in french, but in english and spanish sais so. In this game, you cant always choose to use the special habilities whenever you want. Examples are the Merchant, the arquitect, the queen, the warlord, the tax collector, the bishop, etc...

Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 12:14
In the french rules (on Bruno's site also), there is neverwhere written that the ability of the diplomat is at the end of his turn...
Thats a pity the rules aren't correctly translated... But nevermind, this point doesnt change the game alot... it's just you have to know it before you play...

Quote of the french rules on Bruno's site:
"8- Diplomate
Vous recevez une pièce d’or par quartier militaire (rouge) dans votre cité. Vous pouvez échanger un quartier de votre cité contre un quartier d’une autre cité. Si le quartier que vous prenez à un coût supérieur à celui du quartier que vous cédez, vous devez payer la différence en or au joueur avec lequel vous faites l’échange (ce coût est modifié par la Grande Muraille et les ornementations de l’Artiste). Vous ne pouvez pas prendre un Donjon, ni prendre un quartier dans la cité de l’Évêque.
Note : Si vous jouez avec le Diplomate, retirez le Cimetière de votre jeu."
Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 12:43
I cannot read french, i read the rules of Bruno in english, and i doubt that by error put an additional phrase. It's have a lot of logic that the hability will be the last action or the turn (as the warlord). The 2º edition appear first in french. Maybe they correct the diplomat in other later versions (as they do in other rules).

Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 12:49
I agree with you Achiles... but we have to remember that Bruno had to change the rules for the different versions. So we have to create a type of "international rules" with the best of each version, I think... :-)

So what ? Is the Diplomat able to swap before the end of turn or not ?

Vote for it :
YES = "when he want"
NO = "only at the end of turn"
Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 12:59
The characters of the 2nd edition were first published in English... [Fantasy Flight Games, 2002], as indicated on Bruno's site...

As Bruno is french speaking, i suppose that the cards were thinked in french... (or maybe in german, as the characters of the second edition are selectionned by Bruno in the context of a "Citadel design contest").

Anyway, maybe the aditional phrase is there because the translator inspired himself from the description of the warlord... i don't know.

In fact, it doesn't matter, really...

The thing is that this phrase isn't in the french rules (that means also on your site), and that it is in the other languages (maybe we could check german when the extension comes on the market soon)... so it is a source of confusion for us, who play on an international, multilingual, basis...

Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 13:08
The best of each version is not necessary the more useful or more powerfull. I do not why are in one versions at the end of turn and in another says nothing (dont say whenever you want, notice it... simply said nothing). But if let the diplomat works whenever you want, why not the Warlord?
I'm sure that if not say at the end of turn is by error, simply put that text in future versions. I understand you like to exchange in every moment, let you gain a extra gold, but the bishop will be more interesting if it can "steal" the money after or before you build or waste money, but it is at the start of your turn obligated. I sincerily see that the warlord, at the end of the turn, have a lot of sense. The order of the characters turns and the obligatory and moment of the special habilities are not choose at random... It has a reason (or at least i'd like to think so...). The paper rules of french this the same? someone has rules in paper of the english versions? (curiously, the rules of german and italian versions of Bruno's site dont have extended players... i thought that in german already have 2º version of citadels...)

Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 13:14
The Bruno's site have a forum, in a arcane language. May be there could say somthing of this subject?

Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 13:24
I'll ask the question on Citadels Forum on Bruno's site, in english...

Anyway, it don't like the "at the end of the turn" for the warlord too...

This rules means nothing for the other players... The warlord is the last to play... what is the difference if he destroys before or after...

The ONLY purpose of this rule is:

If the warlord destroys a district in HIS OWN city, he can't build directly after... So, in this sense, it means it is too late to destroy when you have 7 cards in your city and not enough points... cause then you loose a complete turn... --->result : i've NEVER seen a warlord destroying in his own citadel, and i think it is a pity because this is an interesting strategy option.
Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 13:35
I dont understand why the miracle courtyard cannot work the last round of the game (i think a cause, but are only my opinion), but that rule is a rule. While it not be confusing or vacues an bad-explained rules, i'll tends to accept the rules of Bruno (some rules seems to me barbarics). If he decides that the tax collector can steal to the assassin by a extrange patch rule, i'll accept. The rules of the warlord and diplomat dont seems me too stranges...
For me, is more easy to implement special habilities than work in every moment, but if they work in precise moment, i'll try to do the same (except a few exceptions, too hard to implement...)

Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 14:59
Bruno answered my question in the following thread:


So apprently, he always plays with the french rules... but this answer is not very indicative...
Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 15:30
He seems to not understand your question...
He's responses are as vacues as his rules (:
Thanks for ask (i thought that only french are allowed in the list)
I hope bruno ansawer your second question and the first too, with lucky...

Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 15:47
I think he understood my question.. the thing is that he didn't notice this difference and that he always played with the french rules...

Anyway, i don't expect Bruno to take a radical position concerning games rules... In fact, from the conversations i've had with him (on the net), it seems that Bruno thinks that the rules always can be interpreted by the players... that rules aren't "mandatory"... The only thing is, in one game, everybody must play with the same rules...

Concerning the diplomat, i would play with the revenues before or after, because i find it funnier, but this is just my opinion...

Concerning the witch, i think that your interpretation of the rule is a bit nonsense... but well, everybody must have an opinion, that's what makes the world so funny ;-)
Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 17:22
Bruno answered again, in the same post... Once again, his answer, though it is quite funny, won't help us alot...

Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 22:01
I vote YES (anytime).
Re: Diplomat and revenues
26-August-2004 23:34
In my first here I tried to get the most out of my Diplomat: I had 3 red districts and the idea was to swap one other district for a red district, then get revenues (4 gold!).

But -of course- after I had swapped the districts all I could do was finishing my turn. I felt frustrated because I had gained no gold. Fortunately in the end I've won the game (well, as soon as the last player does his last turn), but since I had built the Treasury, it was three points I didn't get.

Anyway, I checked the rules afterwards and saw (English rules) that the swapping had to take place at the end of the turn and I gave it some thought. I concluded it wasn't so bad, only I should've read the rules in detail before, so I'm tempted to say: leave the Diplomat as it is.

On the other hand, it might be interesting to have a different behavior depending on the number of players: for more than 5 players to have him working one way and with 5 or less working the other (this could also apply to the Tax Collector or other characters as well, after all the Queen sorts of has it already: with less than 6 players don't play with her!).
Re: Diplomat and revenues
27-August-2004 01:59
I prefer to touch the rules the less posible...
Benwa, i read the response of Bruno. Sincerily, the game has been developed by his son, or a friend, and he is only who sign the contracts... (:
(i'ts joke, i dont want to offend him...)

Re: Diplomat and revenues
27-August-2004 09:46
Yes Achiles, i tought a bit like you when i read his message... did Bruno really create this game? (sure he did, but sometimes i wonder how... ;-))
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